without it, it would have been a point or two points higher. without it, we would be looking at 10, maybe 11% unemployment. and in pennsylvania, the council of economic advisers said that stimulus spending either created or retained, help retained 136,000 jobs. >> now, let me ask you, governor, they are saying, the republicans basically, have been saying that nothing should have been done, no stimulus. if nothing had been done, your point is that unemployment would be even higher and more of these types of plants would have closeded? >> absolutely. and it's not just my assertion, reverend sharpton, it's the cbo. the cbo has said it loud and clear and definitively. and interestingly, governor romney in january of '09 on cnn and december of '08 on "meet the press" said he was in favor of stimulus spending. not surprising, is it? >> well, flip flopping has been a long habit of his, i think.